‘Be intentional about pursuing things that you're interested in’

What were your interests while you were at Harvard Law School?

I was a member of the Harvard Legal Aid Bureau, an editor with the Harvard Civil Rights-Civil Liberties Law Review, and a member of the Black Law Students Association. But I definitely tried to be open-minded and take in as much as I could.

How did you figure out what you wanted to do with your legal career?

A wise person once told me that you don’t necessarily have to have everything planned in advance, but you can be intentional about pursuing things that you’re interested in, things that you know make you happy and that you have a real passion for, and pretty soon you will have a resume that will make you most qualified for the things you care about. I’ve taken that approach to everything in life.

While I was open to exploring new things at law school, it is not surprising that I ended up where I did. During my undergraduate experience, I happened to be a freshman in the very first class to be admitted to UCLA after Proposition 209 — which ended the consideration of race in admissions in public universities in California — went into effect.

As a student at UCLA, my classmates and I became even more aware of the inequities between K-12 public schools in the state of California: Some had lots of advanced placement and International Baccalaureate courses, credentialed teachers, books, and resources. And other schools, like mine, didn’t have these things in abundance. This realization led a lot of students to work towards positive change.

A few months into school, some young Black women from the Legal Defense Fund visited us and told us they were filing a lawsuit in cooperation with the Mexican American Legal Defense and Educational Fund, the ACLU, and what is now called Asian Americans Advancing Justice-AAJC, against the Regents of the University of California over its admissions policy. They argued that the university was not accounting for the inequalities in California’s PK-12 schools in admissions. Eventually, the lawsuit resulted in a consent decree that led to some consequential positive changes in the way that the university does its admissions.

Seeing that victory as a student was inspiring. At the same time, I was a student who had to work, and I was working in a position tutoring high school students in Watts and Inglewood. As a condition of that role, I had to accept mentorship from a student in a professional or graduate school. I picked someone at the law school. She encouraged me to think about studying law, and that led me to take a class in the law school. I was fortunate enough to do very well in the class, but I still had serious doubts about whether I could go to law school. I just figured that there were no lawyers in my family, there were no lawyers in my community. And I thought, if going to law school and becoming a lawyer was a thing that everybody could do, then certainly there would have been lawyers in my family or community. But I ended up getting an A in that class, and the professor was an alum from Harvard Law, and he also encouraged me to consider law school.

I ended up going to Harvard, and my first summer as a law student, I went to intern with the Legal Defense Fund. I found the idea that I could do something as impactful as those young women who originally visited UCLA when I was a 17-year-old freshman inspiring and compelling. So, it’s not surprising that I ended up doing civil rights impact litigation at the Legal Defense Fund, even though I was open-minded during my time at HLS.

What do you find the most gratifying about practicing law?

Being able to help people. I know that’s very general, but at LDF, when, in the course of our work, we’re able to help large populations of people, or help build a body of precedent that helps people — that is extremely gratifying. During the pandemic, we worked in certain states to help children continue to receive instruction and access to food — that was gratifying.

There are schools I can point to in Alabama and elsewhere that, because of the work I did, are desegregated now, or have more resources in terms of facilities, books, or highly qualified instructors. There is a student that I can look to and say that I helped ensure that he was able to go to school for the last two years of his high school career. Also, just being able to give our clients that robust and zealous representation that everyone deserves is extremely gratifying.

What is something that has surprised you in your legal career?

There are two things. The first is just how inhospitable certain parts of the legal profession are to mothers. It feels like the profession is losing substantial talent to this issue. But it’s not as though nothing can be done. There are legal employers out there who are supportive and who will grant you the flexibility that you need thrive. It’s a situation that everyone needs to play a role in improving.

The second thing that is surprising is where we are with regard to the public’s faith, or lack thereof, in the integrity of legal profession. People have real questions about the fairness of the legal profession, whether judges are actually principled, whether lawyers and those in the judiciary have integrity. I think among my classmates and among older alums, it is surprising that things have evolved the way they have.

If you could give incoming law students one piece of advice, what would it be?

Take advantage of the Harvard Law alumni network. It can be such a source of support, if you know how to leverage it properly. Become a member of the Harvard Law School Association – there are so many chapters all over the world. Use Amicus. Make sure that you’re looking up alumni who are in the places that you’re hoping to be. Do informational interviews with them. Whether at Harvard or elsewhere, I never say no to these types of requests. I always make the time.

I have done these things myself every step of my career, and it has been extremely helpful. When you are open and friendly, people want to help you and will make you aware of opportunities. You can even ask the network for more than just legal advice — ‘I’m moving, where is a good place to live? Do you have a recommendation for a preschool for my 15-month-old?’ People have wonderful recommendations if you’re brave enough to ask.

What were your interests while you were at Harvard Law School? 

I can think of three. First, I wanted to learn as much as I could about becoming a good lawyer. I have no lawyers in my family (I was what they call a “first-gen” student today), and I came into HLS hoping to become a good lawyer but lacking the knowledge of how to get there.

In a sense, some of my “role models” were the fictional lawyers I watched every week on the popular ’80s show “L.A. Law.” It was the first time where I saw myself as a potential future lawyer. And I was hardly alone: The show’s popularity drove up law school applications for years. The modern-day equivalent would be “Suits,” which has had a phenomenal run on cable and, most recently, on Netflix. In “Suits,” the fictional law firm only hired Harvard Law graduates. I am curious to see how the show may have captured the imagination of today’s incoming 1Ls.

Second, I was involved with the HLS Latino community. We worked together to create the Harvard Latino Law Review. Years later, as an alum, I served as chair of the HLS Latino alumni committee for five years and chaired the second Celebration of Latino Alumni. I’m very proud of that. We also put together a top-notch intramural basketball team of Latinos. The squad went all the way and won the league championship. The team was called the Chicano Bulls. What can I say? It was the ’90s.

Third, and perhaps most importantly, I was interested in meeting the incredible array of students that HLS brings together. I met a lot of great folks over my three years at HLS, many of whom I’m still in touch with today. I have the fondest memories of the times I spent with them — and they outpace anything that I ever learned in class.

How did you figure out what you wanted to do with your legal career?

The more practical courses I took at HLS helped me figure out what I wanted to do: courses like the Trial Advocacy Workshop, a Federal Litigation course, and the Legal Aid Clinic. After graduation, I had an opportunity to serve as a federal clerk for an amazing boss. That experience closed the deal.

What do you find the most gratifying about practicing law?

I enjoy being able to think through hard problems and to figure out a way to advocate persuasively on a client’s behalf. The most gratifying part is the privilege of advising a client and together finding out the best ways to deal with a particular challenge.

What is something that has surprised you in your legal career?

I am surprised at how many different and exciting things one can do with an HLS degree. To be sure, there are folks who have stayed on the path of Big Law. Others have become judges, senators, governors, and hold similar positions of public trust. Then there’s the guy who works for the Boston Red Sox, and who has held the World Series championship trophy in his hands. How cool is that?

And you do not have to stay in the law to do amazing things. Perhaps the best story of them all is a classmate who decided, after his first day in his first summer job, that the law wasn’t for him. He instead decided to become a high school math teacher and soccer coach. His soccer team won the state championship — twice. And he is a beloved figure in his community. I can think of few better ways to make a difference.

If you could give incoming law students one piece of advice, what would it be?

Keep it simple. Take it easy — one step at a time. Give yourself a little grace. The study of law is like learning a new language. The process takes time. Trust that you will put it together.

What were your interests while you were at Harvard Law School?

I was on the Harvard Law Review, which I enjoyed and which took a lot of time. My favorite class was Constitutional Law, taught by Professor Paul Freund LL.B. ’31 LL.M. ’32. I also had a great professor in real estate law. I know that campus was a different place then — as characterized by the film “The Paper Chase.” It is more friendly and approachable now.

How did you figure out what you wanted to do with your legal career?

My father and grandfather were both lawyers, so I always wanted to practice as well. But times were different times when I graduated from law school. We were in the middle of the Vietnam War, and after law school, people were drafted immediately unless they had deferments. I had a fellowship to go to London, which would have been interesting and fun, but the draft board told me that the day I got back, they were drafting me. So, I looked up other opportunities, and I ended up going to the U.S. Public Health Service, which is one of the many uniformed services of the U.S. government. I was on active duty serving as a lawyer in Washington, D.C. working on health care legislation for two years.

After getting married to my wife, who is a Radcliffe graduate, and being in Washington for two years, we came back to Boston and I started working at Foley Hoag, which had a reputation for diversity and being involved in civil rights case, in addition to its other work. I was there for 40 years — 15 as a managing partner.

During that time, I started getting involved in political campaigns as well. In the early 1990s, a friend, Paul Tsongas — a congressman from Lowell, Mass. — sat me down and told me he was going to run for president as the primary opposition to Bill Clinton. Paul was a terrific guy, and we carried New Hampshire and did well in a few other states, but Clinton’s personality and money defeated us.

In 2004, when John Kerry ran for president, I helped fundraise for his campaign. And at the Democratic National Convention, after his famous speech, I met Barack Obama and loved him. We held a fundraiser at our house when Obama was running for Senate, and then we were heavily involved in his presidential campaign in 2008. And when he was elected, I was asked to serve as the U.S. Ambassador to Norway, which was a fascinating experience.

Was there anything that surprised you in your career?

The ambassadorship was not something I had ever expected nor was looking for when I got involved in the Obama campaign. We really believed in him.

I was on Obama’s Finance Committee. After he won, I was asked if I would serve a role after he was elected. I said I wanted to stay in Boston, but then I received a call asking if I would ever consider being an ambassador. My first question was, ‘what the hell does an ambassador do, and why would I want to do that?’ But then I talked to my friends, who said I was crazy, and I should consider doing it. Serving in that role was an unexpected surprise and the experience of a lifetime.

What advice would you share with law students or new lawyers?

When I was managing partner of the firm, we had a law firm consultant come to speak to the lawyers about how to think about marketing. He pulled out a $20 bill and said, ‘I’ll give this money to the first person who tells me what business you’re in.’ The first person raised a hand, ‘We litigate for clients in all kinds of security fraud cases.’ Somebody else said, ‘No, I litigate in connection with criminal justice.’ Somebody else said, ‘I do mergers and acquisitions.’ He takes the $20 bill, puts it in his pocket, and said, ‘You’re all wrong. You’re in the relationship business.’ And he was absolutely right. Of course, it’s wonderful to study hard and do well in your classes, but you should also think about your relationships with your professors and classmates. And when you get out and practice, think about your relationships with the people you’re working with, and your clients and the outside world. It’s really very important. I am pleased to report that my class, the Class of 1967, maintains a close relationship. In fact, we meet on Zoom every Monday at noon to keep in touch.

What were your interests while you were at Harvard Law School?

Academically, I was most interested in law and economics. My undergraduate degree was in economics, so it was a natural fit for me. I took every law and econ class that was offered, and I wrote my third-year paper on an antitrust topic for Professor Louis Kaplow. I was also fascinated by technology, so I gravitated to the Journal of Law & Technology, where I served as managing editor.

How did you figure out what you wanted to do with your legal career?

The usual way — by trial and error. I began my career at a fantastic general practice firm doing all kinds of business litigation. I really wanted an opportunity to be exposed to everything. After a few years, I discovered I enjoyed my IP cases the most, so I shifted to an IP boutique, where I was able to immerse myself in IP litigation, which is what I still do today.

What do you find the most gratifying about practicing law?

There are so many aspects of the practice that are all so gratifying. I love being able to look back at people that I’ve trained and mentored over the years and see what great lawyers they’ve become.

I love walking out of a courtroom knowing that I had a great oral argument or great day at trial.

It’s also very gratifying looking at a brief I’ve just drafted. It’s why I still do a lot of my own writing. It’s satisfying to know that you started from a blank screen and created something you can really be proud of.

What is something that has surprised you in your career?

That lawyers can get along with opposing counsel and become friends. I didn’t expect to become friends with so many of my former opposing counsels.

If you could give incoming law students one piece of advice, what would it be?

Make the most of the opportunities that HLS offers you. I’m glad I was involved in the Journal of Law & Technology and a few student organizations. I wish I’d been involved in more of them, and I really wish I’d taken advantage of the clinical programs. I got a lot out of my three years, but I could have learned so much more.

Also — and this is really important — if you met your spouse at HLS, you should mention it if you’re ever interviewed about your time at HLS, even if none of the questions really call for that information. It was the great fortune of my life to meet my wife, Jennifer [’92], in Austin East on the first day of Law and Econ.